UKBouldering.com

Haston climbs new E7 and E8 at Craig Dorys (Read 26113 times)

T_B

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3078
  • Karma: +149/-5
There's still kudos to be had from the first ground up ascent. Maybe that Toru chap would have been up to the FA. I dunno, there's loose and there's loose and that wall is frickin loose. Even someone fearless with 9a guns can only clean so much rock off on the lead.. think about the poor belayer!

Pantontino

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3327
  • Karma: +97/-1
    • www.northwalesbouldering.com
And before Stevie is hoisted up by the ethical police let’s remember that Pat has his fair share of ethical transgressions too. Aside from Tom's point about Byzantium, take Terrorhawk on Cilan Main; Pat placed a bolt on this (eliminated by Crispin Waddy on the second ascent) and abseil inspected the top pitch too.


Is this strictly true? I thought he'd just put hangers on existing bolts which were then hammered flat by CW. I could be wrong and I'm not trying to make a point for either side of the debate just recalling something I read at the time.

Just spoke to Leigh about this and he confirmed that Pat did place a new bolt.

Pantontino

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3327
  • Karma: +97/-1
    • www.northwalesbouldering.com
I've also tweaked the line for Bam, Bam at the top after instructions from Leigh. The top of Harmony was slightly wrong too - see change to this and additional description for final section.

Leigh also told me a funny little story which I thought worth repeating on here: he was belaying Dave Jones on Bobok once when Dave pulled a big block off which landed on Leigh's head, knocking him out. Dave came off moments later and would have decked it, but somehow Leigh had maintained a 'death grip' on the rope, despite being unconscious!

Johnny Brown

Online
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 11437
  • Karma: +690/-22
Quote
A bit of cleaning may well be 'sensible', just like top roping insecure grit routes may be 'sensible' or only climbing bolted routes would be 'sensible' but one of the reasons the Lleyn is so special is because people stick to the ground up ethic.

Exactly. The line of Bam bam was a well known open project and has been decorated with various bits of bail gear for years. With the talent around at the mo it was definitely not far off its time...

Quote
Leigh’s comment that they removed a ‘mini skip’ full of loose rock from the route speaks volumes about the nature of the territory

Done much on here Si? How much you chuck off is mostly limited by boredom - there's nothing solid underneath. It speaks volumes about how much time was spent on ab though - hardly a quick inspection.

Quote
would such a route ever have been done ground up?


Will climbers improve? Surely not!

Quote
it will be a far less deadly and arguably ‘better’ route now

Of course, because what we all go to Stigmata buttress for is safe, solid, normal climbing.

Be interesting to hear Stevie's opinions anyway.

Quote
a funny little story

 :o

route149

Offline
  • **
  • addict
  • Posts: 149
  • Karma: +1/-2
  • 'Let's see how Ben does it...'
he did do it first go, which given the unpredictable nature of the rock (and the F7c climbing) is a truly astonishing lead.

indeed.  I hope it shuts up all the naysayers for good.

Fiend

Offline
  • *
  • _
  • forum hero
  • Abominable sex magick practitioner and climbing heathen
  • Posts: 13413
  • Karma: +676/-67
  • Whut
How much you chuck off is mostly limited by boredom - there's nothing solid underneath.
Well there you go, that's the intro text for the next update of North Wales Rock sorted, at least  ;)

hongkongstuey

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1417
  • Karma: +46/-0
    • http://www.hongkongclimbing.com
as an aside and purely out of interest - how many E8's are there out there that were first climbed ground up?

Pantontino

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3327
  • Karma: +97/-1
    • www.northwalesbouldering.com
I didn't say it definitely wouldn't ever get done ground up (it was a rhetorical question), but I reckon even with the new talent coming through we are a long way from the standard required.

E9/10 ground up in its uncleaned state? - the current generation seem to be struggling to establish E8 as a ground up-able prospect, never mind stepping into that sort of territory.

As it stands there is now an excellent E7 and a superb, albeit serious E8 which are fair game for the top boys to try ground up. (And lest we forget, there is also a pair of unrepeated HXSs waiting too.)

I reckon what is happening here is that Stevie is getting it in the neck more because of who he is (an outspoken and colourful figure) rather than because of the supposed ethical transgression. I notice nobody has criticised Nick Bullock for his abseil inspection of the new routes he has done at Porthllechog in the last year. Actually Nick is quite outspoken too, perhaps it's his turn next to be dragged in front of the ethical committee for a grilling!

In reality what Stevie (and Nick) have done are really good efforts with considerable risk involved.

And Adam, going back to your jibe about the source of this news: Ground Up is an ideal, it's not always a reality for all sorts of reasons. Sometimes routes are done ground up because they are more practical to do in that manner (that is certainly the case with many of the really steep Gogarth routes).

dave

  • Guest
how many pullups can this Nick Bullock character do though?

Johnny Brown

Online
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 11437
  • Karma: +690/-22
I can't speak for anyone else but I don't have any particular beef with Stevie, if Pat Drillcilanjohn had resorted to abseil inspection on No Country I would have had the same criticism. That's the first I've heard of Bullock's activities, and I haven't climbed at Porth Llechog, so I'll not comment as I don't feel sufficiently informed.

Quote
the current generation seem to be struggling to establish E8 as a ground up-able prospect

Bit confused by this, presumably you mean for first ascents? Because that certainly isn't the case for repeats. Perhaps part of the problem is that 90% of the best prospects for ground-uppable lines at this grade have already been head-pointed?

Our Uk trad scene seems stuck in this world of high ideals but low realities. With diminishing possibilities isn't it about time we were men enough to leave some stuff unknown for the next generation?

Pantontino

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3327
  • Karma: +97/-1
    • www.northwalesbouldering.com
Quote
the current generation seem to be struggling to establish E8 as a ground up-able prospect

Bit confused by this, presumably you mean for first ascents? Because that certainly isn't the case for repeats. Perhaps part of the problem is that 90% of the best prospects for ground-uppable lines at this grade have already been head-pointed?

I was talking about first ascents, but E8 ground up repeats are hardly common either.

I've put some stuff on the other channel, basically relating a question from Leigh about the in situ kit, plus a comment on how the Stigmata Buttress rock cleans up.

El Mocho

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 629
  • Karma: +148/-1
I reckon what is happening here is that Stevie is getting it in the neck more because of who he is (an outspoken and colourful figure) rather than because of the supposed ethical transgression.

I think the only people really giving Stevie any stick are me and Adam, Adam has 'no beef' with Stevie and I am the same. To be honest if it was nearly anyone else than Stevie or Leigh I would be giving them a lot MORE stick, both have climbed so much on the Lleyn and have developed the area so much that there views have to be taken into account.

I always thought the ethic on the Lleyn was for ground up climbing, and this will have certain issues - loose rock, unknown terrain and maybe a drop in the physical difficulty that you can climb.

If this is the ethic I think you should stick to it on all routes not just ones within your grade. Rust Never Sleeps (E5) was highly criticised but Bam Bam (E8) is ok?

If it has become acceptable only to preinspect routes of E7 or harder on the Lleyn (eg Ugly) then I guess I have less of a issue with Stevie and more of an issue with the whole ethic - it seems very elitist and selfish to me.


As it stands there is now an excellent E7 and a superb, albeit serious E8 which are fair game for the top boys to try ground up. (And lest we forget, there is also a pair of unrepeated HXSs waiting too.)


I thought the whole "it will make the route more popular/it will make a better route" excuse had been proved as a poor argument for ethical changes. These were the reasons bolts were placed on what became 'the big issue', sika holds were added to Malham, routes chipped... (all obviously much worse than an abb inspection)

I have never been a major Lleyn activist and it could be I had the ethics wrong (which would be a pity, I am all for keeping some areas 'ground up only' eg Range West) I have tried new routes on the Lleyn (failed 20ft from the top, would have been pretty easy after a quick abb) and climbed a few of the routes in the area but there are many people who have climbed more here than me (over a year now since I was last at Dorys) and if people like Stevie and Leigh feel the ethics should be slackened then they have more say than me but it should be highlighted that this is what is happening.

As I said before (and most others have said) phenominal climbing by Stevie regardless of the ethics involved

Regarding the fixed gear mentioned on the other channel - last time I was here (18 mnths ago) I remember seeing fixed gear at approx 20m. It wasn't a small peg etc but more a sling attached to some gear. It could have come out or I could be wrong - I was looking from the ground.

Johnny Brown

Online
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 11437
  • Karma: +690/-22
There was a stuck wire/sling in the diagonal crack at around 15m at least 15 years ago - as long as I can remember. I was told it was Pat's, and have a vague memory of him confirming this. Since I first saw it other bits have come and gone too. I think you have to be careful assuming all attempts on lines like this have been done by 'name' climbers known to the 'beris scene.

As with Ben, I was told by older climbers like Adam Wainwright and Martin Crook that the Lleyn, and Cilan in particular, was a place where the prevailing ethic was ground-up only. Many of Stevie's routes I'm sure predate this and he may well remain unaware of its establishment, but I do think it is a very worthwhile thing and worth preserving. If it can't be preserved at such a pure adventure crag as Cilan then sad to say it won't be preserved anywhere.

andy popp

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5525
  • Karma: +347/-5
older climbers like Adam Wainwright

You have no idea how crap these five words make me feel.

Falling Down

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4880
  • Karma: +333/-4
    • bensblogredux
 ;D

good one Andy.  I just wish I was good enough to participate in the debate...

Falling Down

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4880
  • Karma: +333/-4
    • bensblogredux
That said, the two new routes I did at Porth Ceriad were done ground up and insight as I understood the prevailing ethic was as described.

Danny

Offline
  • ****
  • junky
  • Posts: 855
  • Karma: +43/-3
I'm not really psyched for this arbitrary ethical line in the sand type debate. Though, for whatever its worth, I've done new routes in both styles and had good fun in the process.  That’s what it’s all about IMO

I do have two comments -

Firstly, good effort to Jack for flashing Bam, Bam.

Secondly, Steven:

"I would just like to say I find it absurd that my detracters do not altogether have a small proportion of my ground up or onsight experience, some advice to them don’t talk about that which thou knows nowt about. One of them has been filmed crying when jumaring while belayed to an additional rope, one filmed taking multiple falls from 4 meters onto 2 mats and claiming E7, one has failed to climb a route I ground upped the first assent and graded E4, remember EL Golio. All of this is ludicrously funny"


Even if you'd onsighted E10 blindfolded, naked and covered in KY jelly this quote alludes to one more important point:  you're clearly a tw@

Frank Ramsay

Offline
  • *
  • newbie
  • Posts: 2
  • Karma: +1/-0
older climbers like Adam Wainwright

You have no idea how crap these five words make me feel.

Hi Andy - long time no see!

andy popp

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5525
  • Karma: +347/-5
Frank, is that really you?!

Joepicalli

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 721
  • Karma: +32/-3
older climbers like Adam Wainwright

You have no idea how crap these five words make me feel.

Hi Andy - long time no see!
Bloody hell! what Andy said, on both counts.

Frank Ramsay

Offline
  • *
  • newbie
  • Posts: 2
  • Karma: +1/-0
Andy, Joe, good to see you're still at it!

Keeping on topic: what a place the Lleyn is - I'm getting enthusiastic again. Rock soft enough to smash warthogs straight in (OK I exaggerate). Isn't the internet fantastic - just a click away from fantasy E8's when work gets boring.

 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal