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Haston climbs new E7 and E8 at Craig Dorys (Read 26077 times)

Pantontino

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Haston climbs new E7 and E8 at Craig Dorys
September 09, 2009, 11:29:30 am
Stevie Haston and Leigh McGinley have climbed a new E7 and E8 on Craig Dorys down on the Lleyn.

http://www.groundupclimbing.com/newsitem.asp?nsid=242

All that hardcore sport climbing hasn't blunted his trad skills - an amazing effort!

I've made a topo showing the lines here:

http://www.groundupclimbing.com/topocat1.asp?pdfcategoryid=7

Fiend

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No doubt people will be queuing for this one :)

nik at work

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Have I misunderstood the write up or did Stevie onsight the first ascent of this?
Onsight E8 F.A. at 52? What the fuck are the rest of us playing at....

Pantontino

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It wasn't onsight - the line was cleaned on abseil first (thus the reference to a mini skip of removed rock) - but he did do it first go, which given the unpredictable nature of the rock (and the F7c climbing) is a truly astonishing lead.

nik at work

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So kind of flashed? He didn't pull on whilst cleaning?
Oh, whatever, who cares, my question still stands, what the fuck are the rest of us playing at?

A Mazing


Jaspersharpe

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Shut up and do some pull ups.

tc

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No doubt people will be queuing for this one :)

Not many queues for Melody or Grandad's Challenge, either! You missed them off the topo, Simon. Probably just as well -- people might get hurt!
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 12:07:56 pm by tc »

Pantontino

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I wasn't sure of the lines, although Melody looks fairly obvious.

There does look like a decent line between the upper sections of Bam, Bam and The Gross Clinic - still plenty of new stuff to do on this cliff for anybody who can cope with the crazy rock.

Pantontino

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Okay, I've added Grandad's Challenge and Melody to the topo. The former is a guess, though I'm sure it's obvious when you get there.

For those who didn't know, these were both climbed in 2004 by Stevie and given the delightful HXS grade.

T_B

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I stood under this wall for the first time this year. An E8 up that Gross Clinic wall is seriously f*ckin psychotic. The rock is utter choss! Bonkers.

Johnny Brown

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Impressive as these routes are, the answer to the question 'what is everyone else playing at?' is 'only trying new routes on Dorys ground-up'. (And rather ironic given the news source.) Its a shame Stevie has decided to again go against what has become the prevailing ethic of this area, though that's not to denigrate his original efforts developing this crag. There are a lot of potential routes remaining on Cilan whose challenge will be significantly diminished with pre-inspection.

Be worth adding Pat's route Rockin' in the free world to the topo too. Takes the slim groove above the start of Cripple Creek, then the headwall above.

Fiend

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I wonder if he put any tickmarks on the way down ;)

I'd like to see the Euros / East Asians come over stick a few mats down and ground up this lot... :)

Johnny Brown

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I don't think you'd need to look any further than Belgium actually.

benpritch

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Impressive as these routes are, the answer to the question 'what is everyone else playing at?' is 'only trying new routes on Dorys ground-up'. (And rather ironic given the news source.) Its a shame Stevie has decided to again go against what has become the prevailing ethic of this area, though that's not to denigrate his original efforts developing this crag. There are a lot of potential routes remaining on Cilan whose challenge will be significantly diminished with pre-inspection.

Be worth adding Pat's route Rockin' in the free world to the topo too. Takes the slim groove above the start of Cripple Creek, then the headwall above.

excellent point JB

nik at work

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Ah, didn't realise the local prevailing ethic. Still an impressive ascent.

PATRuL

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Well done Mr Haston.

Sorry folks for all the past splat, buts its time to get serious now!
SO to business.
Come back Mr Haston, your muerte actions far outcede the conclusion of my past limitations.
However, I will soon be very very fit and happy to belay you on any project of your choosing.
Wizard Ridge?
I reckon i could get you up that with a bachar ladder.
Good luck Fighty.
But i have to say the first time i met you i did not approve of your gruffness and huffy puffness as you stormed past my youthful and innocent hello at Bas Cuvier.
ANd oddly enough the rocks were not too impressed either nor the litter you missed.
The Trees have said to me you had better watch your foot placements.
PS Don't over crimp.
See you in Spain most probably.
Go safely, well and with a full hearty love on.
Careful i may shower you with love. xxx (three in France right?)

dave

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oh fucking joy.

El Mocho

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Impressive as these routes are, the answer to the question 'what is everyone else playing at?' is 'only trying new routes on Dorys ground-up'. ...

Well said Johnny.

I believe the line of Bam Bam has been tried by various people ground up (at least that is what I had heard) there has definately been gear left insitu at peoples high points.

After all the controversy surrounding 'Rust Never Sleeps' back in 1992 it sounds like Steve is fully embracing that same approach.

To quote the 1997 guide about rust never sleeps:

"Contriversal in that 10 pegs and massive cleaning operations were employed to climb a line that had been attempted on sight by other Lleyn activists. "I do belive that areas like the Lleyn could represent a facet that has all but disappeared from British climbing". S. Mayers commenting on the on-sight ethic."

Still it sounds like a hard line climbed with pretty minimal inspection (and a very good line) I would be far more excited if he dropped the grade a little and stuck to the ground up ethic though!


benpritch

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Quote
“We cleaned it on an abseil rope first; we must have removed a mini skip’s worth of loose rock”

not really in keeping i think.

T_B

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Was Ugly climbed ground up?

Surely on a cliff that is as steep and exceedingly loose such as this, a bit of cleaning is sensible where you are really going to have to commit to weighting choss? It aint like they top roped it. I've only done that E3 on the right, but I would imagine forging a new line up that cliff on-sight with steep F7c climbing is pretty much asking for disaster. For anyone who has not been there, it is not normal rock. I could imagine large sections coming off. How many ascents has Gross Clinic had anyway?

I think the bigger issue is the use of pegs. Byzantium has unneccesary pegs on it but no one goes slagging off pat do they? I think a bit of pre-inspection and less pegs is better than GU and rotten ironmongery 10 yrs down the line. It's not like the Llyen will ever attract masses of top roping headpointers now is it?!

Forgot for a minute that this is UKB  :-[

andy popp

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I think the bigger issue is the use of pegs. Byzantium has unneccesary pegs on it but no one goes slagging off pat do they? I think a bit of pre-inspection and less pegs is better than GU and rotten ironmongery 10 yrs down the line. It's not like the Llyen will ever attract masses of top roping headpointers now is it?!

Can't remember for sure, but am not convinced Byzantium was gound up anyway?

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I'm inclined to agree with Tom, I think the extreme nature of the rock dictates a loosening of the ethical code.

And for the record: Stevie did climb Grandad’s Challenge ground up (took four days of effort) and he did try Melody ground up initially before some nasty falls and scary retreats lead to a decision to abseil in and place a peg. Ironically this turned out to be very poor.

Let’s be sure to give credit where it’s due, on the spectrum of style Stevie’s ascents are a very long way from a clinical head point. Leigh’s comment that they removed a ‘mini skip’ full of loose rock from the route speaks volumes about the nature of the territory – would such a route ever have been done ground up? I’m sure you will argue that the answer to that is yes, and that now we will never know. A ground up repeat is still their for the taking, and it will be a far less deadly and arguably ‘better’ route now.

And before Stevie is hoisted up by the ethical police let’s remember that Pat has his fair share of ethical transgressions too. Aside from Tom's point about Byzantium, take Terrorhawk on Cilan Main; Pat placed a bolt on this (eliminated by Crispin Waddy on the second ascent) and abseil inspected the top pitch too.

As for the topo not including Rocking in the Free World, it wasn’t meant to be definitive, just (in the absence of any action shots) illustrative of where Stevie’s routes went. You’ll notice that I didn’t draw on any of the routes left of Bobok either.

George abbed Ugly first, placing the pegs, then made all attempts 'ground up' after that. Similar to what Stevie did on the two new routes at Dorys.

El Mocho

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Was Ugly climbed ground up?
...

I always thought Ugly was climbed ground up. It doesn't say it was in my (older) guide but then it tends to only make a coment in the history when things weren't climbed ground up.

A bit of cleaning may well be 'sensible', just like top roping insecure grit routes may be 'sensible' or only climbing bolted routes would be 'sensible' but one of the reasons the Lleyn is so special is because people stick to the ground up ethic.

For you or me climbing F7c on this terrain, on sight, ground up, new route could well be pretty terminal but in a few years time when we have a Will Perrin with Adam Ondura climbing ability it could be ok. When Adam did Gross Clinic (say F6c?) he had done things like Melencony (sp?) F8b. This is directly comparable to people at the cutting edge now (F9b) climbing F7c here. None of the top sport climbers are seen down the Lleyn much but as standards improve - Lobber Throbber has just done F8c(+)! - this sort of thing will be possible.

I think the Cross Clinic has had quite a lot of ascents now, next on the list for me on the wall. People like Neil youth, Caff etc seem to cruise up routes on this wall.

Pegs are definately an issue - and as people on here may know I think anyone placing (and leaving in) a peg on a sea cliff is being a bit selfish.

Regarding slagging off Pat - you must not have hung out with the same people as me in the pub! He def gets a bit of stick about some things eg bolts on Cilan main and Byzantium being refered to as a sport climb...

The great thing about the Lleyn are all the stories about people doing crazy stuff and often in the past those people have been Steve and Leigh so plenty of respect to them for that.

El Mocho

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I'm inclined to agree with Tom, I think the extreme nature of the rock dictates a loosening of the ethical code.

Think you posted whilst I was writing.

As you say Stevies ascent was a great effort, E8 with only ab inspection.

With Bam Bam people had tried the route ground up and the number of people who must have walked beneath the line and dreamed about climbing it must be even more. I have probably spent a fair few hours looking at that line and thinking about climbing it. The main reason I didn't was I was too scared (I nearly passed out with fear when I did Bobok (E4 and about F5c) just to the left) but the other thing holding me back was that I would have to climb it ground up.

I don't think I would have ever tried/done this route ground up - as you say F7c on this terrain is hard core - but with people like Neil Youth, Pete Whittaker, Nico etc not being far off the mark it would have happened fairly soon, and Bam Bam was possibly the most well known of the lines to do on the Lleyn...

As I said above it is still a great ascent, and if it had been at nearly any other venue in the UK would have been in brilliant style.

Teaboy

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And before Stevie is hoisted up by the ethical police let’s remember that Pat has his fair share of ethical transgressions too. Aside from Tom's point about Byzantium, take Terrorhawk on Cilan Main; Pat placed a bolt on this (eliminated by Crispin Waddy on the second ascent) and abseil inspected the top pitch too.


Is this strictly true? I thought he'd just put hangers on existing bolts which were then hammered flat by CW. I could be wrong and I'm not trying to make a point for either side of the debate just recalling something I read at the time.

T_B

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There's still kudos to be had from the first ground up ascent. Maybe that Toru chap would have been up to the FA. I dunno, there's loose and there's loose and that wall is frickin loose. Even someone fearless with 9a guns can only clean so much rock off on the lead.. think about the poor belayer!

Pantontino

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And before Stevie is hoisted up by the ethical police let’s remember that Pat has his fair share of ethical transgressions too. Aside from Tom's point about Byzantium, take Terrorhawk on Cilan Main; Pat placed a bolt on this (eliminated by Crispin Waddy on the second ascent) and abseil inspected the top pitch too.


Is this strictly true? I thought he'd just put hangers on existing bolts which were then hammered flat by CW. I could be wrong and I'm not trying to make a point for either side of the debate just recalling something I read at the time.

Just spoke to Leigh about this and he confirmed that Pat did place a new bolt.

Pantontino

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I've also tweaked the line for Bam, Bam at the top after instructions from Leigh. The top of Harmony was slightly wrong too - see change to this and additional description for final section.

Leigh also told me a funny little story which I thought worth repeating on here: he was belaying Dave Jones on Bobok once when Dave pulled a big block off which landed on Leigh's head, knocking him out. Dave came off moments later and would have decked it, but somehow Leigh had maintained a 'death grip' on the rope, despite being unconscious!

Johnny Brown

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Quote
A bit of cleaning may well be 'sensible', just like top roping insecure grit routes may be 'sensible' or only climbing bolted routes would be 'sensible' but one of the reasons the Lleyn is so special is because people stick to the ground up ethic.

Exactly. The line of Bam bam was a well known open project and has been decorated with various bits of bail gear for years. With the talent around at the mo it was definitely not far off its time...

Quote
Leigh’s comment that they removed a ‘mini skip’ full of loose rock from the route speaks volumes about the nature of the territory

Done much on here Si? How much you chuck off is mostly limited by boredom - there's nothing solid underneath. It speaks volumes about how much time was spent on ab though - hardly a quick inspection.

Quote
would such a route ever have been done ground up?


Will climbers improve? Surely not!

Quote
it will be a far less deadly and arguably ‘better’ route now

Of course, because what we all go to Stigmata buttress for is safe, solid, normal climbing.

Be interesting to hear Stevie's opinions anyway.

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a funny little story

 :o

route149

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he did do it first go, which given the unpredictable nature of the rock (and the F7c climbing) is a truly astonishing lead.

indeed.  I hope it shuts up all the naysayers for good.

Fiend

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How much you chuck off is mostly limited by boredom - there's nothing solid underneath.
Well there you go, that's the intro text for the next update of North Wales Rock sorted, at least  ;)

hongkongstuey

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as an aside and purely out of interest - how many E8's are there out there that were first climbed ground up?

Pantontino

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I didn't say it definitely wouldn't ever get done ground up (it was a rhetorical question), but I reckon even with the new talent coming through we are a long way from the standard required.

E9/10 ground up in its uncleaned state? - the current generation seem to be struggling to establish E8 as a ground up-able prospect, never mind stepping into that sort of territory.

As it stands there is now an excellent E7 and a superb, albeit serious E8 which are fair game for the top boys to try ground up. (And lest we forget, there is also a pair of unrepeated HXSs waiting too.)

I reckon what is happening here is that Stevie is getting it in the neck more because of who he is (an outspoken and colourful figure) rather than because of the supposed ethical transgression. I notice nobody has criticised Nick Bullock for his abseil inspection of the new routes he has done at Porthllechog in the last year. Actually Nick is quite outspoken too, perhaps it's his turn next to be dragged in front of the ethical committee for a grilling!

In reality what Stevie (and Nick) have done are really good efforts with considerable risk involved.

And Adam, going back to your jibe about the source of this news: Ground Up is an ideal, it's not always a reality for all sorts of reasons. Sometimes routes are done ground up because they are more practical to do in that manner (that is certainly the case with many of the really steep Gogarth routes).

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how many pullups can this Nick Bullock character do though?

Johnny Brown

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I can't speak for anyone else but I don't have any particular beef with Stevie, if Pat Drillcilanjohn had resorted to abseil inspection on No Country I would have had the same criticism. That's the first I've heard of Bullock's activities, and I haven't climbed at Porth Llechog, so I'll not comment as I don't feel sufficiently informed.

Quote
the current generation seem to be struggling to establish E8 as a ground up-able prospect

Bit confused by this, presumably you mean for first ascents? Because that certainly isn't the case for repeats. Perhaps part of the problem is that 90% of the best prospects for ground-uppable lines at this grade have already been head-pointed?

Our Uk trad scene seems stuck in this world of high ideals but low realities. With diminishing possibilities isn't it about time we were men enough to leave some stuff unknown for the next generation?

Pantontino

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Quote
the current generation seem to be struggling to establish E8 as a ground up-able prospect

Bit confused by this, presumably you mean for first ascents? Because that certainly isn't the case for repeats. Perhaps part of the problem is that 90% of the best prospects for ground-uppable lines at this grade have already been head-pointed?

I was talking about first ascents, but E8 ground up repeats are hardly common either.

I've put some stuff on the other channel, basically relating a question from Leigh about the in situ kit, plus a comment on how the Stigmata Buttress rock cleans up.

El Mocho

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I reckon what is happening here is that Stevie is getting it in the neck more because of who he is (an outspoken and colourful figure) rather than because of the supposed ethical transgression.

I think the only people really giving Stevie any stick are me and Adam, Adam has 'no beef' with Stevie and I am the same. To be honest if it was nearly anyone else than Stevie or Leigh I would be giving them a lot MORE stick, both have climbed so much on the Lleyn and have developed the area so much that there views have to be taken into account.

I always thought the ethic on the Lleyn was for ground up climbing, and this will have certain issues - loose rock, unknown terrain and maybe a drop in the physical difficulty that you can climb.

If this is the ethic I think you should stick to it on all routes not just ones within your grade. Rust Never Sleeps (E5) was highly criticised but Bam Bam (E8) is ok?

If it has become acceptable only to preinspect routes of E7 or harder on the Lleyn (eg Ugly) then I guess I have less of a issue with Stevie and more of an issue with the whole ethic - it seems very elitist and selfish to me.


As it stands there is now an excellent E7 and a superb, albeit serious E8 which are fair game for the top boys to try ground up. (And lest we forget, there is also a pair of unrepeated HXSs waiting too.)


I thought the whole "it will make the route more popular/it will make a better route" excuse had been proved as a poor argument for ethical changes. These were the reasons bolts were placed on what became 'the big issue', sika holds were added to Malham, routes chipped... (all obviously much worse than an abb inspection)

I have never been a major Lleyn activist and it could be I had the ethics wrong (which would be a pity, I am all for keeping some areas 'ground up only' eg Range West) I have tried new routes on the Lleyn (failed 20ft from the top, would have been pretty easy after a quick abb) and climbed a few of the routes in the area but there are many people who have climbed more here than me (over a year now since I was last at Dorys) and if people like Stevie and Leigh feel the ethics should be slackened then they have more say than me but it should be highlighted that this is what is happening.

As I said before (and most others have said) phenominal climbing by Stevie regardless of the ethics involved

Regarding the fixed gear mentioned on the other channel - last time I was here (18 mnths ago) I remember seeing fixed gear at approx 20m. It wasn't a small peg etc but more a sling attached to some gear. It could have come out or I could be wrong - I was looking from the ground.

Johnny Brown

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There was a stuck wire/sling in the diagonal crack at around 15m at least 15 years ago - as long as I can remember. I was told it was Pat's, and have a vague memory of him confirming this. Since I first saw it other bits have come and gone too. I think you have to be careful assuming all attempts on lines like this have been done by 'name' climbers known to the 'beris scene.

As with Ben, I was told by older climbers like Adam Wainwright and Martin Crook that the Lleyn, and Cilan in particular, was a place where the prevailing ethic was ground-up only. Many of Stevie's routes I'm sure predate this and he may well remain unaware of its establishment, but I do think it is a very worthwhile thing and worth preserving. If it can't be preserved at such a pure adventure crag as Cilan then sad to say it won't be preserved anywhere.

andy popp

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older climbers like Adam Wainwright

You have no idea how crap these five words make me feel.

Falling Down

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 ;D

good one Andy.  I just wish I was good enough to participate in the debate...

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That said, the two new routes I did at Porth Ceriad were done ground up and insight as I understood the prevailing ethic was as described.

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I'm not really psyched for this arbitrary ethical line in the sand type debate. Though, for whatever its worth, I've done new routes in both styles and had good fun in the process.  That’s what it’s all about IMO

I do have two comments -

Firstly, good effort to Jack for flashing Bam, Bam.

Secondly, Steven:

"I would just like to say I find it absurd that my detracters do not altogether have a small proportion of my ground up or onsight experience, some advice to them don’t talk about that which thou knows nowt about. One of them has been filmed crying when jumaring while belayed to an additional rope, one filmed taking multiple falls from 4 meters onto 2 mats and claiming E7, one has failed to climb a route I ground upped the first assent and graded E4, remember EL Golio. All of this is ludicrously funny"


Even if you'd onsighted E10 blindfolded, naked and covered in KY jelly this quote alludes to one more important point:  you're clearly a tw@

Frank Ramsay

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older climbers like Adam Wainwright

You have no idea how crap these five words make me feel.

Hi Andy - long time no see!

andy popp

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Frank, is that really you?!

Joepicalli

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older climbers like Adam Wainwright

You have no idea how crap these five words make me feel.

Hi Andy - long time no see!
Bloody hell! what Andy said, on both counts.

Frank Ramsay

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Andy, Joe, good to see you're still at it!

Keeping on topic: what a place the Lleyn is - I'm getting enthusiastic again. Rock soft enough to smash warthogs straight in (OK I exaggerate). Isn't the internet fantastic - just a click away from fantasy E8's when work gets boring.

 

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