[Fiend]

Jasper-who?? 

[bigd942]

From a company side of things, what are the legal implications of having a climber on the company books and paying him/her to climb? Do climbers actually get money for climbing or for legal reasons are they paid for R&D, Marketing etc. I mean if Company X had Billy X as a sponsored climber, what happens if he goes out and hurts himself bad trying something, in these days of elf'n'safety would that not be classed as an injury at work?? Does that open the company to legal action? Is giving gear all they can really do and just pay a climber for anything but climbing, if it is then does than mean you can climb as hard as you like but if you're not liked/admired or able to be fluent/personable in front of an audience or some buyer at a trade show you might as well forget about ever getting financial rewards for your troubles.
Is it not the case that most of the big wave surfers (Mavericks, Aileens etc) just get on with it and it's done more for themselves/peer group, is that not the reality of climbing in the UK - if you get a new rope for impressing someone then all the better.

Dom

[Houdini]

So far i know Ioans headpoints have been ignored. What should he do?

Give up climbing immediately and become a plumber.  Within two years he could be on 35K per annum.

[n_man]

I don't know what James Pearson gets sponsorshipwise, but probably as deserving as any current Brit, he's done all sorts of cutting edge stuff. Trad repeats, at least three significant FAs and hard bouldering all over the show.

What about Ty? He seems to be here there and everywhere, is there money in climbing in the States?

[Paul B]

I don't know what James Pearson gets sponsorshipwise, but probably as deserving as any current Brit, he's done all sorts of cutting edge stuff. Trad repeats, at least three significant FAs and hard bouldering all over the show.

What about Ty? He seems to be here there and everywhere, is there money in climbing in the States?

I don't know what James Pearson gets sponsorshipwise, but probably as deserving as any current Brit, he's done all sorts of cutting edge stuff. Trad repeats, at least three significant FAs and hard bouldering all over the show.

What about Ty? He seems to be here there and everywhere, is there money in climbing in the States?

I think Ty's parents aren't short of a bob or two but I could be wrong.

[stevie haston]

Hi guys and girls, I thought Jaspers reply was spot on. Whatever money is available ( not much) should go to the elite. If there is some money going from the government maybe it would be nice for it to go to the juniors.
Anyway real standards, where are they. Look at Jaspers post, and try and see who we have like even him now. I have looked at lots of info on many sites and the great grit debacle does seem as bad as I thought, not good mind. The use of pads on the routes is more than iffy (if other people dont agree fine(( I wish I didnt have to keep qualifing every thing))), Onsight was defined in my era by many and agreed on by many , it meant at first sight(just like a vue) and the only available extra knowledge was agreed to be info  generally available from a guide book. On sight is very much abused(was in my day to), the hard onsight you hear about often are flashs. If Gaia had been graded as E7 (like it should always have been) many other routes would obvoiusly drop to and E grades might make more sense.Now then not to be sizist but clearly jonny was a very talented slab dwarf and alex is very good alround and bigger, makes for a very big difference on morpho routes. Many of my routes have changed grades over the years up down and side ways, some have even fallen down, some times I was hurt because I invest to much of my ego in them. If you can stay cool( hard) then the grades might become more accurate. So where are we in this debate. Gaia has not had a proper onsight(proberbly can only now get a good flash), if it is E7 this says alot. A very attractive elegant groove easy access from the hub of british climbing and still not had a proper ascent, so I would have to say that a very good onsight grade is E7. Gaia is 5.12b X, Some 5.12 bs were onsight soloed many years ago. I was told that maybe a handfull of E8s have been onsighted, but I really dont know enough about climbing anymore, to make any comment.      good luck, Stevie

[katy]

I'm not saying he should get loads of money now, hell no. however ya do need support from loads of different sides in order to develop a certain image which may then become attractive to sponsers in some way, money, boots, gear etc. fuck, even getting 3 pairs of boots a year saves you bout 200 or more quid so it makes massive amounts of difference. thats a trips worth of food or flights?esp when you basically have to save every penny. every body gave me loads of names, and am i right in believing that at least one felt they didn't have enough supprt and so quit? and they are all mega talented but not really climbing any more, britains standards go down because we don't support our best climbers?so yeah i think thats a waste.
i'm using ioan as an example coz its someone that i know. he may not be the best example in know that!

The thread was about britains standards, and we have plenty of talent. Britian has a theme of being highly critical about anyone other than the best. all you do with that is shoot yourself in the foot because we're not really encouraging people to go and climb and try hard and maybe become better than they are,

[Johnny Brown]

I think it might be worth someone explaining the harsh realities of the climbing world. There is very little money out there. Even someone like James P got very little for years

The first thing is that the media is small, struggling and as a result not brilliantly conected. They don't have the resources to do any investigative reporting. This has two consequences - if you don't tell them yourself, or get a close friend to do it, they won't know about it. And second, if you do tell them, they will almost certainly report it. The two together mean there has always been a large discrepancy between what goes on at the crags and what goes on in the mags. Whinging on the net won't help, they still won't come looking for you. What you need to do is tell the mags in the first place, and also realise photos make news much more publishable.

Folk get sponsored if they ask for it. Unfortunately this means writing a CV and begging letters, often this is too demeaning for the average youth who thinks the world owes them something. It certainly was for me, plus the act of writing a CV is a pretty good wake-up call to whether you are actually deserving of sponsorship. Unless you are very well connected no one is going to walk up and offer you sponsorship. Unfortunately the climbing has to come first. Living in Wales you've got by far the most benevolent sponsor there, one of the few that is happy to support people rather than buying advertising space on your trousers in return for fuck all.



As for the main topic, having seen Alex climb I can say he is pretty much the most talented climber I've ever seen on grit. And I've seen most of them. Likewise, Kevin has one of the most impressive CVs of anyone who's ever been to Burbage. His ground-up of Parthian was very much aided by Bransby's efforts, and I daresay if Ben was a bit taller he would have been first up.

None of these guys have much of a clue about grades yet so I wouldn't put too much store by the comments. I think Gaia should remain at the bottom of the E8 grade, likewise End of the Affair, they have been benchmarks for many years and at 22 years old its about fucking time someone made them look easy. One of the reasons they seem 'easy' is because they lend themselves to headpointing - 'trick' or technical moves in a dangerous place that are very fluffable onsight but easy to wire with practice.

I've been banging this drum for years but between the number of folk who top-roped them as youths, and ther ones who are strong but can't climb, there's very few climbers in the Peak left to try these things and there certainly hasn't been any pressure.

With this and the onsight film I hope grit climbing will get a kick up the arse. The list of last great lines is feeble, whilst the list of routes that need climbing in half-decent style is huge. The future of grit is ground-up.

[Dave Westlake]

Hi Katy,

Is this the same Ioan (pronounced yo-han?? ) that I met in Ceuse this year?  ...the one who had a TV company with him who were making a documentary and funding the trip (i think?).  With all the DMM gear?

If so then to be honest I think he's getting his share of the small amount of resources/ funds available.  Especially bearing in mind I know at least 2 people who are his age and climbing as hard/ harder who struggle to get free shoes.

Don't take this the wrong way, he just seems like a bad example to use as the basis of your (otherwise fairly valid) argument.  The 14yr old onsighting E6 may be a better one?  Sounds like that would fall into the "not shit" category, but like others have said if you don't seek publicity you rarely get it.

Dave

[grimer]

That's it. There just isn't much money kicking around. And no -one has ever been rewarded for being quietly good.

But surely there's things one can do to get financial rewards for climbing. Two people who spring to mind are Andy Kirkpatrick and Ian Parnell. Both really good, but as far as I can tell, they're not the Steve MacLures of their game. But they both have made themselves attractive to the media by doing lots of writing, photography, lectures, self-promotion, and ended up making cash out of climbing. They have both worked really hard at it. If they write something, it will be more interesting than a basic trip report. If they do a lecture, it may well be quite entertaining and funny, with great photos that they have taken themselves. They will get exposure for their sponsors, and give feedback on products.

I'm sure there's a million things Ioan etc could do - write an interesting blog, do interesting little video clips, getting in touch with mags and seeing is there anything they can do. Climbing is brilliant and fun. Work tends to be more like work, but is usually what people get paid for. I bet even Leo works hard in his own way.

[Three Nine]

I climbed with Ioan in Buoux at easter and he had several pairs of free solutions and lots of dmm gear - seemed to be doing well for himself in the way of sponsorship AND media attention in the way of a guy filming him. He was very good and a very likeable chap, but a million miles behind the cutting edge, even for someone so young.

[al]

all this grade/number stuff illustrates what i've always loved about gritstone more than any other rock; that it can't be reduced to numbers, and all this confusion underlines this - when you rock up to a piece of grit of whatever standard you are dealing with many ambiguities, not a campus board. Tough if its confusing for people who don't climb on it, or are visiting, but thats not a problem if they have a desire for the deeper experience - if they just want to tick some boxes on their 8anu card however, then it may be more problematic.

[chummer]

'Is this the same Ioan (pronounced yo-han?? ) that I met in Ceuse this year?  ...the one who had a TV company with him who were making a documentary and funding the trip (i think?).  With all the DMM gear?'

Is this also the same Ioan who had a full length TV program on tele on the back of a funded trip to Spain and America who also had another funded trip planned for Yosemite this year?

Seems he's getting an amazing deal to me katy, very few top end British climbers get funded trips and lets be honest he's not even top end (though obviously a talented climber)

So maybe your response to this thread could have actually contained the knowledge of how to get such support instead of the mis guided muse of somebody who doesn't quite realise just how many talented climbers get sweet FA and still get shit loads done both here and abroad. (i am sure you mean well katy)  

[Paul B]

'Is this the same Ioan (pronounced yo-han?? ) that I met in Ceuse this year?  ...the one who had a TV company with him who were making a documentary and funding the trip (i think?).  With all the DMM gear?'

Is this also the same Ioan who had a full length TV program on tele on the back of a funded trip to Spain and America who also had another funded trip planned for Yosemite this year?

 

[Nigel]

Hi Katy,

Is this the same Ioan (pronounced yo-han?? ) that I met in Ceuse this year?  ...the one who had a TV company with him who were making a documentary and funding the trip (i think?).  With all the DMM gear?

Is this the same Ioan Doyle who drinks a gallon of Cristal every hour from solid gold taps (which he leaves running) in a diamond mansion on the moon, pausing only to eat £50 note sandwiches. Courtesy of DMM.

P.S. I have no idea who Ioan Doyle is.

[Hockstack]

Poor Ioan, someone is going to be in the shit (katy). Ioan has his own veiws and sould not be pulled into this because of his girl. Shame on you Kate.

[n_man]

This from Matt Segals blog and losing his psyche on climbing....whilst in England....perhaps a good account of why its tricky to climb hard in the Peak????

There were three paragraphs before this about finding it hard as a full time climber as well.



Being in England has been especially hard since the climbing days are limited due to weather. You have to be ready to step up at any moment, the good weather windows can be short so there’s always the pressure to get out while its good since it never stays good for long. One bad day of climbing turns into a week of bad climbing when it rains for days and you’re left to climbing in the gym… This has been my trip, and I haven’t been able to make the good days count…

I know it’s all in my head but its hard to rally on scary climbs when you’re not psyched to climb anything… With one week left I’m going to make the best of it; simply get outside and try and do what I do best, hopefully I will rediscover my love for climbing, something I think I’ve lost since I’ve been in England…

[stevie haston]

morning, as I dont know much about british climbing any more, I was wondering how a routelet like Steve dunnings very sweet looking High Fidelity clocks in the grit numbers. Anyway as a more general point it looks like we have survived the last invasion ( their honesty about mats and style was very frank) and perhaps (?) we have similarly able climbers. What is clear is that like the belgians they did not do anything supper hard, more than possibly this was because they were very happy enjoying themelves, what is also clear, is that their are some odd grades about, or odd ways of wieghing rock difficulty. I personaly did not find the ascents of the belgians or the yanks mind boggling (after looking at style) and am quiet interested what they chose not to do and am also interested in the fact that the brits in the same time did very little. Like I mentioned before soloing the Moonlight is very out there, as is soloing the Fish, these are not broken ankle jobs after all. If we do get a fully competant 9a  climber ie multiple 9s, familiar with different rock type quality, and gear who is completly bonkers we might get an E10 repeated proberly.
The only thing Iave learnt out of this is that the brit scene is a bit insular, I may of course be wrong, Stevie.     

[Drew]

hopefully I will rediscover my love for climbing, something I think I’ve lost since I’ve been in England…

He didn't seem too bad t'other day at Cratcliffe! I don't know what he was like earlier in the day, but when we turned up he seemed pretty psyched!

[Stoat]

Katy

Twenty odd years ago a mate of mine thrashed the world record for front-hops on a BMX. We lay around smoking and drinking cider and clapped. He for some reason did not get a sponsor deal from Haro (the bike he was riding (divorced parents)). Maybe he should have asked?

To make money in a non-mainstream sport is always going to mean pimping yourself out.

Good luck to him anyway.

PS. To older readers he had Redline Flight cranks as well the lucky bastard!

[c.j.d.]

 
 With regards to standards, I can only think of two youths who will take over the British scene (bouldering) and move on to challenge other world class boulderers.  This will only happen if they don't get lazy or to tied up in the whole, very boring, grade debate.  No one is pushing limits at the moment - fast repeats fair enough, but new ground?  Not happening.

The British scene is a funny one, and has changed alot in the last 15 years.  It seems like there is less of a true scene these days - have we forgotten to put fun and reckles abandon alongside being dedicated and hardcore?  There is no underground scene any more - just youths with spots and very clean Prana pants (good sponsorship or fat bank account?).

I do think that climbers have lost the drive to ascend new problems, and go looking for the Grail.  This could be laziness, or maybe just a lack of imagination.  Its really easy to get good now - everyone can do that - but to use it?  Different ball game.  It could be a lack of money, or time, or as Katy put it on page one, something like 'we've got alot on our plates'.  Get real, I climbed V14 working about 75 hours a week with two young children, sole provider to a family of four - that's tricky, but I do know what I need to do to achieve something hard, so sorry, no excuses kids.

The media is a load of shite - uninspiring magazines aimed at uninspired climbers - this must be the case, otherwise they would not get away with the bollocks that they print.  Years ago, you would read a mag cover to cover, and then again, just to make sure you had not missed anything - this has definitley changed.  Hmmmm, ponder ponder...

[nodder]

I agree with most of that but there is a scene possibly even more underground than it was as these people have realised they have nothing to gain through selling themselves.  Someone random pops up does something awesome gets a load of shit for daring to be an unknown.

[the little drummer girl]

Fucking aye.

[Bonjoy]

 With regards to standards, I can only think of two youths who will take over the British scene (bouldering) and move on to challenge other world class boulderers.  This will only happen if they don't get lazy or to tied up in the whole, very boring, grade debate.  No one is pushing limits at the moment - fast repeats fair enough, but new ground?  Not happening.

The British scene is a funny one, and has changed alot in the last 15 years.  It seems like there is less of a true scene these days - have we forgotten to put fun and reckles abandon alongside being dedicated and hardcore?  There is no underground scene any more - just youths with spots and very clean Prana pants (good sponsorship or fat bank account?).

I do think that climbers have lost the drive to ascend new problems, and go looking for the Grail.  This could be laziness, or maybe just a lack of imagination.  Its really easy to get good now - everyone can do that - but to use it?  Different ball game.  It could be a lack of money, or time, or as Katy put it on page one, something like 'we've got alot on our plates'.  Get real, I climbed V14 working about 75 hours a week with two young children, sole provider to a family of four - that's tricky, but I do know what I need to do to achieve something hard, so sorry, no excuses kids.

The media is a load of shite - uninspiring magazines aimed at uninspired climbers - this must be the case, otherwise they would not get away with the bollocks that they print.  Years ago, you would read a mag cover to cover, and then again, just to make sure you had not missed anything - this has definitley changed.  Hmmmm, ponder ponder...

Pure rubbish. I disagree with almost every word.

[Johnny Brown]

Well said. Sounds to me more like CJ has just grown out of the scene. Are mags really that much worse, or are you just no longer interested?