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Da News (Read 1516305 times)

Oldmanmatt

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#6325 Da News
June 16, 2017, 04:06:52 pm
Dear Editor,

It's a sunny day, here in the Bay and I'm on shift at the wall. This means I am lonely, bored and have a lot of free time.
The fire has really bugged me.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/shameless-tory-council-leader-blames-10631544

I spent 25 years first maintaining, then building, then designing Ships. I designed fixed firefighting systems and fire resistant and fire proof bulkheads and partitions.  I know how cheaply and simply it can be done. If our ship building standards and regulations had been set by craven politicians like this joke and his bosses, thousands would die every year. Sprinklers have been around for over one hundred years, they are cheap and easy to fit, but according to the Tories it was more important to make the block pretty from the outside, by apparently wrapping it in candle wax, wood and accelerants.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/london-fire-grenfell-tower-kensington-mp-emma-dent-coad-cladding-refurbishment-a7792901.html?cmpid=facebook-post

Of course, the "Experts" all told them it was dangerous and a disaster waiting to happen, but our Government have decided they have had enough of "Experts" and that public school means they know everything and the "Experts" are just being silly, should pull their socks up and stop whinging.
I say the politicians are arrogant, corrupt and should bear the brunt of responsibility for this tragedy.

If you think this is purely the "Lefty" view of the situation, I submit the Torygraph version:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/16/anger-leader-kensington-council-appears-blame-grenfell-residents/?WT.mc_id=tmgoff_fb_tmg

And for balance:

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/tories-have-blocked-labour-legislation-to-improve-rented-homes-but-its-complicated

The last 12 months (going on 7 years, really) has pushed me further and further to the left, politically. I'm sick to death of the fucking greedy, arrogant, selfish shits running this country (that includes most of the last Labour Government, by the way) and the apparently global, lurch to the right of populist feeling.
Britain has been turned into a third world country (I can only see it getting worse); if this had happened in Bangladesh, people here would have tutted and muttered "will they never learn" (or worse, something about skin colour or foreigners) under their breath and felt superior for the rest of the day.

Yours,
Angry of Torquay

PS.

Even that massively pro-Tory BBC is struggling to cope with this one.

London fire: A tale of two tower blocks
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40290158
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 04:28:33 pm by Oldmanmatt »

seankenny

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#6326 Re: Da News
June 16, 2017, 05:17:28 pm
. I'm sick to death of the fucking greedy, arrogant, selfish shits running this country (that includes most of the last Labour Government, by the way) and the apparently global, lurch to the right of populist feeling.


I'm totally in agreement with much of your post but I'm sorry, I have to take you to task with this bit. Sure, the last Labour government could have done a lot more on social housing (like, errrr, maybe build some?!) but it did at least pump money into the system. I'm not saying they were ideal, and I'm sure we'd agree that Blair and a few others have indeed made a lot of money off their time in government. But come on, we've had a (mostly) Tory government for SEVEN YEARS. It's a mark of how ingrained and unconscious the right wing is in this country that it's common to throw some shit at the Labour Party even thought they've lost three elections, as if a Labour government was a radioactive material with a really long half life.

The Conservative governments since 2010 have sucked money out of the state, reducing spending on so many of the vital bonds that hold our society together. From protection and social insurance for the disabled and the unemployed, to the police, the NHS, local government, you don't need me to list it because you know it yourself. Cut, cut, cut, even when as you say avoiding this kind of disaster needen't be expensive. All for an economic chimera - cutting the deficit - which many, many economists say sits somewhere between unneccessary and damaging.

If we continue a blanket condemnation of "they're all as bad as each other" when no, they really really aren't, then *that* is what opens the gate to the politics of populism and paranoia.

Right, rant over and sorry Matt. It's not really directed at you in particular because "damn them all" is such a common refrain, but it obscures the good work some people try to do to stop these fuckers.

Oldmanmatt

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#6327 Da News
June 16, 2017, 05:26:53 pm
Expenses.



That is all.

Edit:

Bugger, can't leave it at that can I.
Too many pigs at the trough, some pigs more equal than others, of course, but pigs of all stripes. A rainbow coalition of greed.
Meanwhile, the poor go hungry.
Or get a bit warm.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_parliamentary_expenses_scandal
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 05:32:55 pm by Oldmanmatt »

seankenny

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#6328 Re: Da News
June 16, 2017, 05:40:06 pm
Expenses.



That is all.

Edit:

Bugger, can't leave it at that can I.
Too many pigs at the trough, some pigs more equal than others, of course, but pigs of all stripes. A rainbow coalition of greed.
Meanwhile, the poor go hungry.
Or get a bit warm.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_parliamentary_expenses_scandal

Yes, MPs expenses was ugly. But the costs, the actual cost to our society not in trust but in hard cash, was trivial. This disaster (and the on-going political strife in the UK) has not so much to do with expenses but about much, much bigger issues - how do we configure our state, how do we pay for it, how much we tax and how much we spend. If we're going to gripe about noses in the trough, I'd put the revolving door between state and private sector as way worse than expenses, as it can affect policy, which is a bigger deal than flipping houses even if less obviously corrupt and ugly. Complaining about the expenses scandal which was cleaned up a long time ago is of course a nice little distraction.

God, I'm starting to sound like some sort of loony Corbynite here.

Oldmanmatt

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#6329 Re: Da News
June 16, 2017, 09:42:30 pm
I've been unable to find out what the "with insulation " component of the cladding. The supplier, Harley, have taken down the page that detailed the construction.

http://www.harleyfacades.co.uk/page/do/page_not_found

So, if anyone knows...?

Some bits and bobs, from other digging.

https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/grenfell-tower-residents-had-predicted-massive-fire/10020757.article

http://www.studioe.co.uk/?portfolio=grenfell



http://bcmgrc.com/general_grcinaction.pdf

Anyone know if there is a resin content in GRC? Not a material I've worked with.

Aluminium, I know...

http://www.alfed.org.uk/files/Fact%20sheets/11-aluminium-and-fire.pdf

Mildly misleading, it can burn, but I'd be surprised if the temps got that high on the exterior. It will have conducted the heat around the building though. That heat will not have magically dissipated as that booklet implies...

I'm wondering about that insulation, funny how that info has gone walkabout.

http://www.harleyfacades.co.uk/page/8031/article/727

Oldmanmatt

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#6330 Re: Da News
June 16, 2017, 10:25:48 pm
The cladding should not have burned, it was rated quite highly:




If the correct, specified, material been used.

But, I've re-watched as much footage as I can, including some from ~20min after the fire service arrived and the cladding is clearly "dripping" burning material.

Sorry if this bores or offends anyone, just trying to understand out of some fading professional interest and hoping there might be someone here with better Civil Engineering knowledge.

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#6332 Re: Da News
June 16, 2017, 11:38:37 pm
Bloody EU Red Tape..
Quote
German construction companies have been banned from using plastic-filled cladding, such as Reynobond PE, on towers more than 22 metres high since the 1980s when regulations were brought in to improve fire safety at residential blocks.

But we're lucky..
Quote
In the UK there are no regulations requiring the use of fire-retardant material in cladding used on the exterior of tower blocks and schools.

 :slap:

Oldmanmatt

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#6333 Re: Da News
June 17, 2017, 06:51:23 am
So, it wasn't the material specified by the architects, and yet they signed off on the project?
If I'd done that, I'd have gone to jail, but then, so would the Class Surveyor and the Flag Surveyor.
If that's what happened, of course...

Oldmanmatt

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#6334 Re: Da News
June 17, 2017, 08:53:20 am
Hmmmm. The Times has definitely turned on May, the burn from the cartoon alone is epic. (Pun intended, though obviously in poor taste, sorry).


Oldmanmatt

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#6335 Re: Da News
June 17, 2017, 10:28:26 am
Robert Peston (better than a Facebook link):

"One reason why the Grenfell tragedy has shaken so many of us is because it exposes so much of what's wrong with the way this place has been run for years.

We'll have to wait for a forensic examination of all the many decisions that turned a series of risks into an appalling catastrophe.

But although the trigger may still be unclear, it is reasonable to identify a number of underlying causes.

Part of the background is austerity that has been particularly acute for local government.

But austerity seems to have become particularly toxic in a system where responsibility for vital safety decisions is so diffuse: we have ministers in charge of regulations, councillors funding an arms length management company, and a management company placing a refurbishment contract with the cheapest bidder.

There is naturally huge anger that the government didn't ban the kind of cladding used at Grenfell, when such cladding is illegal for use on high rise structures in the US (as the Times reports today).

Similarly there is horror that the government never made it obligatory for the fire safety standards that apply to new buildings to be enforced at older blocks - that such improvements are only recommended, not obligatory.

But such lax or light touch regulation only becomes fatal in a system - such as we have - designed to drive down costs and save money, not to put the safety of people first.

It is a system in which those working for all the interconnected bodies that made the refurbishment decisions and gave the wrong safety advice to tenants are able to say - as if that makes it alright - "we followed the rules".

It is a system in which identifying anyone who can be proved to be ultimately responsible for what happened may be impossible.

And as we saw in the banks before the financial crisis, when people can take reckless decisions safe in the knowledge they can't be held to account, reckless decisions get taken.

The horrific corollary of a faceless, irresponsible system of public-housing governance is that many of the poor and vulnerable people who died in the fire are not even being given the respect of formal identification as victims - because they live on the fringes of the state, and the authorities seem unable to be confident they even existed, let alone that they have died.

There is a social contract between those of us lucky enough to have voices that are heard and those who don't that we should not put them in harms way. Grenfell seems the most grotesque breach of that contract in my lifetime. It shames us all."


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#6336 Re: Da News
June 17, 2017, 03:15:14 pm
Not bored in the climbing wall like OMM, but sat in a layby near Ullswater with TTjnr snoring in the back (so MrsTT can have a bath in peace)...

It's not a fault of capitalism - or neoliberalisation - but of poor regulation and poor enforcement of regulation.

Like most of the posts above, those enforcing these (council?) become so stretched and under pressure due to cutbacks, things are ignored - passed by - seen as less important than trying to wade through a massive workload etc..

Whether this fire is the tipping point where people finally realise/rise up (in a polite British way..) will be seen.. coupled with an unpopular PM who seems to typify all that is aloof and wrong with 'the system' perhaps. But probably not..

My final ramble - I have worked on flood defence and spending. And this follows a disaster led cycle. 2000. Big floods, big enquiry - increase in spending. This is then gradually cut back. 2007. Big floods, enquiry - increase in spending then gradually pared back. 2015... you get the jist. Part of this is due to the political cycle of 4-5 years of course...

Right. Baby awake. Got to go.

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#6337 Re: Da News
June 17, 2017, 03:23:38 pm
 We live close by and one of our friends lives opposite the tower.  She was up all night helping people and said it was like the apocalypse...  Mrs FD has been down there the last three days sorting stuff out.

There's a lot of anger and frustration in the neighbourhood.  Feels like what I've read and seen about Aberfan.

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#6338 Re: Da News
June 17, 2017, 08:13:10 pm
We live close by and one of our friends lives opposite the tower.  She was up all night helping people and said it was like the apocalypse...  Mrs FD has been down there the last three days sorting stuff out.

There's a lot of anger and frustration in the neighbourhood.  Feels like what I've read and seen about Aberfan.

Good on them both, and then some.

Any idea if this is accurate?

Because, if so, fuckity fuck fuck.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/16/my-council-tax-rebate-from-kensington-and-chelsea-is-blood-money?CMP=share_btn_tw

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#6339 Re: Da News
June 17, 2017, 10:38:18 pm
We live close by and one of our friends lives opposite the tower.  She was up all night helping people and said it was like the apocalypse...  Mrs FD has been down there the last three days sorting stuff out.

There's a lot of anger and frustration in the neighbourhood.  Feels like what I've read and seen about Aberfan.

Good on them both, and then some.

Any idea if this is accurate?

Because, if so, fuckity fuck fuck.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/16/my-council-tax-rebate-from-kensington-and-chelsea-is-blood-money?CMP=share_btn_tw
Rumour going around that Council sat on £300 million reserves.
The cost of slightly more expensive cladding £6,000.
Sums up the state of play at moment, cost cutting, subtracting out the sub contracts etc.
A race to the bottom, all the waffle about cutting red tape leads to this.

Falling Down, want to volunteer tomorrow, don't have a clue where to go. Does Mrs FD need a hand sorting things out (Sun18th) looked on tinternet and help I think might be needed at Kensal Community Centre.

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#6340 Re: Da News
June 18, 2017, 12:27:52 am
JFDM, if you use FB then apparently this is the group to find out where to help https://m.facebook.com/groups/386972045032265

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#6341 Re: Da News
June 18, 2017, 09:22:25 am
So, it wasn't the material specified by the architects, and yet they signed off on the project?
If I'd done that, I'd have gone to jail, but then, so would the Class Surveyor and the Flag Surveyor.
If that's what happened, of course...

I'm not sure if this applies in this particular situation, but a friend of mine is an architect and does those "student accommodation" blocks. Once the design is signed off it's passed over to the lowest bidding "design and build" contractor who then changes all the specs to the cheapest alternative they can get away with. Glasgow is full of those blocks and I'm sure they're not fit for purpose...

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#6342 Re: Da News
June 18, 2017, 07:28:52 pm
JFDM, if you use FB then apparently this is the group to find out where to help https://m.facebook.com/groups/386972045032265
Thanks FD for pointing me in the right direction. In the end made it to Kensal Community Centre, lots of willing and friendly volunteers sorting through donations. I got the plumb job sorting out women's stops/trousers, now an expert!
Looks as though there is enough work to last at least another couple of days.


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#6343 Re: Da News
June 18, 2017, 09:27:20 pm

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#6344 Re: Da News
June 19, 2017, 12:06:30 am
Not surprising: Without knowing anything about UK's legal system, I simply refuse to believe it can be legal to clad a high rise building in oil. That has to be illegal pretty much on the entire planet.

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#6345 Re: Da News
June 19, 2017, 06:28:25 am
The same cladding has been used on brand new buildings here in Melbourne allegedly.

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#6346 Re: Da News
June 19, 2017, 01:31:56 pm
Good to here that Sheffield have confirmed all it's council blocks use fire retardant cladding.
http://www.sheffieldnewsroom.co.uk/firesafety/

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#6347 Re: Da News
June 21, 2017, 08:20:42 pm
Good to hear that Sheffield have confirmed all it's council blocks use fire retardant cladding.
http://www.sheffieldnewsroom.co.uk/firesafety/
I wouldn't be so hasty, Grenfell inspected 16 times during revamp, appears as though the only people that knew what work was actually done were the people who carried out the job.
I'd want everything triple checked before making a claim like this.
Watched this last night, Panorama
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08x1tss/panorama-london-tower-fire-britains-shame
Really upsetting, I was really distressed about much of what was shown, tears in eyes, unimaginable horrors, just imagining myself/family being placed in such danger.
Neglect on so many levels, no fire alarm, no sprinklers, residents had enough time to exit building but were not alerted, ladders/hoses not long enough, death trap cladding.
It is horrific to see such needless loss of life, all deaths seem very preventable.
All above issues were raised at residents meetings but not acted on by council.
The aftermath, equally neglectful, volunteers doing the job of local/central gov, army not called up to help with aftermath, residents simply fending for themselves.
Was away last week so just got bits of news, now up to speed I am equal parts angry and upset. If this was millionaires row or Hyde Park One, the outcome/aftermath would have been very different.

« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 08:37:01 pm by jfdm »

Oldmanmatt

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#6349 Re: Da News
June 21, 2017, 11:13:57 pm
That was a hard watch.

Lovely people around that area too:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-victims-rehoused-luxury-apartment-block-kensington-neighbours-response-reaction-a7801896.html?cmpid=facebook-post
That's London living, millionaires row often backs onto Joe public house/tower block/flat. Millionaires thinking not in my backyard but then that's the prevailing view across the UK. The big thing I found though on Sunday was that the volunteers were all lovely people, generous, kind, caring. Not all Londoners are spivs and chancers.

 

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